That's what is puzzling to me as well. But churches can be split into factions, you see. Just because there are some who believe in the might and power of Angels doesn't mean everyone does.
Besides, as we can see from these notes...there are Angels who are helpful, and Angels who are most certainly not. It isn't as clearcut as we may assume it to be...
The only other angel that I recall - I know there are others, but the one I learned the most of was Uriel. He was guarding the tree in the Garden, where the original temptation of "knowledge" came from. So.. by that logic, that angel would have... I suppose, partaken in that original 'sin' of knowledge, and thereby created or generated Dust. I don't believe Uriel was a golden angel made of Dust as Bertolt described, though, someone would have to correct me if that memory was false.
...Is it possible that the Magisterium is not aware that the Angels that people have seen here - that they have interacted with - are made of Dust, entirely?
Because... why would they want to eradicate their own figures of faith and justice? The ones who are supposedly acting upon their so-called righteous goal?
No, I think they are aware. At least, the scientists we talked to were aware. Once again, a scientist stated, very clearly: "If we're free from Dust, we never have to worry about Angels again."
They know the direct connection. As for why...they seem more preoccupied with getting rid of "sin" than keeping their Angels around.
...Then are you positive, that it was the Magisterium? I recognize the connection, but - that seems largely impossible. Not when the worship of Angels has been the entire thread that has connected every single world we visited together.
Was there anything that said they were part of the Magisterium specifically there, anywhere? Please, if you can recall.
The note I received is labeled "The Magis". Also, it seems in these notes up here, the Magisterium is known for their experiments.
[It's hard, because he just experienced everything at once, and his head is spinning...]
They never stated they were part of the Magisterium specifically, though. I apologize. I am not entirely positive. So perhaps they were a new faction? Or...a faction within a faction.
[ hm. his brows knit, and he glances away at the tables. ]
...The dead seem to have access to more information than us. Perhaps that is a question we can discuss with them - who are the Magi, and which side are they related to? Xaphania? The Authority? Are they separate from the Magisterium?
Because if that's the case, they are not related to the Church in that they are closer then related to 'knowledge', or as we have come to know them, our "Temporal" side.
Ah - I know a decent amount, and I know Alphinaud spoke on it in our meeting before. I spent some time canvassing this week and trying to get information before our meeting and spent some time with the pastor of the chapel.
[ xie lian reaches into his sleeve and pulls out a small notepad, where there are a set of neatly written notes. ]
The Magisterium is the ruling authority of the Holy Church, where much study and work on behalf of the Church is done. The hierarchy of angels is part of their doctrine - which is why I thought it odd that they would want to destroy Angels. But they do research on various things - things that range from minor inventions and sciences through the lens of the Holy Church, to other things such as "dark matter". [ he has no idea what that is but thats ok. continuing on: ] The Magisterium is also where the word of the Church is issued through.
It is a part of the Church's "holy war" - a war between perceived believers and heretics, depending on your side. They would call it Just, I believe, if what the pastor told us held true.
The facility we were in was rather well organized, and had guards and the like to defend their scientists. Something like that wouldn't be some small group, I think.
Perhaps the group I met was not exactly the public side of the Magisterium, but, much like members of a government can belong to a separate corrupt collective working under everyone else's noses...maybe these scientists are or were part of the Magisterium, and may be filtering funds or using their work.
[He isn't sure if they were MAGISTERIUM but somehow the connection must be super close.]
...I do find it hard to believe that such a collective would be allowed to exist within, based on the sort of organization this seems to be, but...I do see your point.
The Church's worship of Angels is in their very doctrine, so, whether they're related or not - we can safely say that the Church does not want to destroy the Angels.
...Which brings me back to my original point. I don't think the side of the Church is aware that our Angels are made of Dust as a whole. That is the contradiction, is it not? That the Church wants all Dust to be eliminated, but their Angels here are made of it?
....I may not know much about the religion of this place, but, I do know a bit about religion, [ yeah, god? ] and doctrines do not change that easily.
The beliefs of people, the beliefs of others, yes; but the inner members of such things are far, far more difficult to sway. And those who do, rebel, which may be what gives us our two sided conflict.
I doubt that the Church has swayed away from their Angels.
I don't doubt that. Belief is very, very hard to sway. But there is something here that...rubs at me, with some discomfort.
[He grumbles to himself. He's just thinking out loud, here.]
These scientists wanted to eliminate "sin", which is primarily a good thing. One would want to be rid of the evils of the world, and the bad deeds of men. They believed that Dust is an example of this Original Sin, born from the Garden of Eden. In a way, wouldn't one assume that this is the goal of God? God is a force of "good", with His angels at his beck and call, after all.
I really am trying to understand. How can such a goal exist, then? To eliminate something primarily good for a good cause?
But - in this case, you must step back from the subjectivity of "good" and "evil". Because the very actions you saw were horrific, but the people who were doing them felt they were doing good, didn't they?
In my cultivation path, to stray to temptation means to take upon desires for things that will taint the body - alcohol, drugs, pleasures. Those would be our concept, I suppose, of 'sin'. But, in this case...if I am understanding this correctly, then what makes this sin the "original sin" is not the act of doing bad things. It is the act of making the choice to do something bad at all.
The humans in that Garden were tempted into disobeying god's orders - into showing their free will to make decisions on their own. So, I think the issue is that to those on the side of that God... humans not having free will is good.
[ which is hateful!
xie lian glances over to dokja. ] Mr. Dokja and I had a conversation about this the other evening. When Qi Rong and I fought, the spectres came and draped themselves upon us, and attacked our daemons. Specifically, when they attacked Qi Rong - he stopped fighting me. He stopped fighting anything. You all saw what sort of personality he had.
So... when those creatures began to siphon from him, I believe they took his free will, pulling straight from his soul. What is humanity if not our ability to choose?
They were delighted to do what they were doing. Monsters.
[He clenches his hand into a fist at his side...and then releases it, but the fury in his eyes doesn't fully abate.]
It was free will? "Free will is sin"...?
[He hates that. He hates the very idea of that.]
What a horrifying thing. If not the destruction of worlds at stake then...if Dust is truly, fully eliminated, and it truly represents the free will that resides in the souls of humanity...then it could turn people into nothing more than mindness automatons.
[ haha! yeah. san lang is making a very large, unhappy, rattling noise for a ferret, almost hissing, even if the thunder in his person's expression is a little more muted than usual. ]
At least, that is my interpretation. But it seems to align with what Allen taught me, and about what Miss Alisaie said when she spoke to the one called Uriel.
...So then, the beings who wish to eliminate Dust wish to eliminate free will. And... we are meant to generate it. The more willful a person, the more Dust they have.
Similarly... I think that is why the items that are recovered from the Watchers are so important. If they are their tie to humanity, they keep the Watchers willful and themselves, instead of...
[ ... he trails off here, and looks away. san lang's angry noise picks up in volume before abruptly cutting off. ]
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Besides, as we can see from these notes...there are Angels who are helpful, and Angels who are most certainly not. It isn't as clearcut as we may assume it to be...
[WHY IS IT COMPLICATED]
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[ frowning. ]
The only other angel that I recall - I know there are others, but the one I learned the most of was Uriel. He was guarding the tree in the Garden, where the original temptation of "knowledge" came from. So.. by that logic, that angel would have... I suppose, partaken in that original 'sin' of knowledge, and thereby created or generated Dust. I don't believe Uriel was a golden angel made of Dust as Bertolt described, though, someone would have to correct me if that memory was false.
...Is it possible that the Magisterium is not aware that the Angels that people have seen here - that they have interacted with - are made of Dust, entirely?
Because... why would they want to eradicate their own figures of faith and justice? The ones who are supposedly acting upon their so-called righteous goal?
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They know the direct connection. As for why...they seem more preoccupied with getting rid of "sin" than keeping their Angels around.
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Was there anything that said they were part of the Magisterium specifically there, anywhere? Please, if you can recall.
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The note I received is labeled "The Magis". Also, it seems in these notes up here, the Magisterium is known for their experiments.
[It's hard, because he just experienced everything at once, and his head is spinning...]
They never stated they were part of the Magisterium specifically, though. I apologize. I am not entirely positive. So perhaps they were a new faction? Or...a faction within a faction.
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[He just falls silent, looking distant.]
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...The dead seem to have access to more information than us. Perhaps that is a question we can discuss with them - who are the Magi, and which side are they related to? Xaphania? The Authority? Are they separate from the Magisterium?
Because if that's the case, they are not related to the Church in that they are closer then related to 'knowledge', or as we have come to know them, our "Temporal" side.
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Also...what else do we know for sure regarding the Magisterium? There doesn't seem to be much in these documents.
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[ xie lian reaches into his sleeve and pulls out a small notepad, where there are a set of neatly written notes. ]
The Magisterium is the ruling authority of the Holy Church, where much study and work on behalf of the Church is done. The hierarchy of angels is part of their doctrine - which is why I thought it odd that they would want to destroy Angels. But they do research on various things - things that range from minor inventions and sciences through the lens of the Holy Church, to other things such as "dark matter". [ he has no idea what that is but thats ok. continuing on: ] The Magisterium is also where the word of the Church is issued through.
It is a part of the Church's "holy war" - a war between perceived believers and heretics, depending on your side. They would call it Just, I believe, if what the pastor told us held true.
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Perhaps the group I met was not exactly the public side of the Magisterium, but, much like members of a government can belong to a separate corrupt collective working under everyone else's noses...maybe these scientists are or were part of the Magisterium, and may be filtering funds or using their work.
[He isn't sure if they were MAGISTERIUM but somehow the connection must be super close.]
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The Church's worship of Angels is in their very doctrine, so, whether they're related or not - we can safely say that the Church does not want to destroy the Angels.
...Which brings me back to my original point. I don't think the side of the Church is aware that our Angels are made of Dust as a whole. That is the contradiction, is it not? That the Church wants all Dust to be eliminated, but their Angels here are made of it?
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[He frowns.]
What if...that was their doctrine? In the past tense.
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The beliefs of people, the beliefs of others, yes; but the inner members of such things are far, far more difficult to sway. And those who do, rebel, which may be what gives us our two sided conflict.
I doubt that the Church has swayed away from their Angels.
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[He grumbles to himself. He's just thinking out loud, here.]
These scientists wanted to eliminate "sin", which is primarily a good thing. One would want to be rid of the evils of the world, and the bad deeds of men. They believed that Dust is an example of this Original Sin, born from the Garden of Eden. In a way, wouldn't one assume that this is the goal of God? God is a force of "good", with His angels at his beck and call, after all.
I really am trying to understand. How can such a goal exist, then? To eliminate something primarily good for a good cause?
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In my cultivation path, to stray to temptation means to take upon desires for things that will taint the body - alcohol, drugs, pleasures. Those would be our concept, I suppose, of 'sin'. But, in this case...if I am understanding this correctly, then what makes this sin the "original sin" is not the act of doing bad things. It is the act of making the choice to do something bad at all.
The humans in that Garden were tempted into disobeying god's orders - into showing their free will to make decisions on their own. So, I think the issue is that to those on the side of that God... humans not having free will is good.
[ which is hateful!
xie lian glances over to dokja. ] Mr. Dokja and I had a conversation about this the other evening. When Qi Rong and I fought, the spectres came and draped themselves upon us, and attacked our daemons. Specifically, when they attacked Qi Rong - he stopped fighting me. He stopped fighting anything. You all saw what sort of personality he had.
So... when those creatures began to siphon from him, I believe they took his free will, pulling straight from his soul. What is humanity if not our ability to choose?
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[He clenches his hand into a fist at his side...and then releases it, but the fury in his eyes doesn't fully abate.]
It was free will? "Free will is sin"...?
[He hates that. He hates the very idea of that.]
What a horrifying thing. If not the destruction of worlds at stake then...if Dust is truly, fully eliminated, and it truly represents the free will that resides in the souls of humanity...then it could turn people into nothing more than mindness automatons.
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At least, that is my interpretation. But it seems to align with what Allen taught me, and about what Miss Alisaie said when she spoke to the one called Uriel.
...So then, the beings who wish to eliminate Dust wish to eliminate free will. And... we are meant to generate it. The more willful a person, the more Dust they have.
Similarly... I think that is why the items that are recovered from the Watchers are so important. If they are their tie to humanity, they keep the Watchers willful and themselves, instead of...
[ ... he trails off here, and looks away. san lang's angry noise picks up in volume before abruptly cutting off. ]
... you understand.
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